Eric Farber – Author, The Case for Culture [Culture]
Eric talks about how he represented Snoop, Dr. Dre, Death Row, and Tupac. He was basically a gangster lawyer. He goes on to talk about the importance of culture and the importance of taking care of your team, clients, vendors, and community.
Nick Glimsdahl 0:04
Welcome to the Press 1 for Nick Podcast. I am Nick Glimsdahl. My guest this week is Eric Farber. Eric is the CEO and founder of Pacific workers. They are the leading law firm in Northern California representing injured workers. He’s also the author of the case for culture, how to stop being a slave to your law firm. Grow your practice and actually be happy. Welcome to the Press 1 for Nick podcast, Eric. Hey, thanks
Eric Farber 0:26
for having me, Nick.
Nick Glimsdahl 0:27
Yeah, so I always try to find a nugget that people might not know about you. Obviously, they they’ve seen that you’ve wrote a book, which we can talk about here in a little bit. They they know how you are a successful attorney. But what most people what’s one thing that most people might not know by?
Eric Farber 0:47
Well, well, there’s lots but you know, prior to starting Pacific workers, I worked as a sports entertainment where for a lot of years, and represented, I like to say I’m the only person who represented Snoop, Dr. Dre death row, and I represent the To box chorus day for 18 years. So I’ve actually been, I was basically a gangster warrior for a really long time.
Nick Glimsdahl 1:16
It was that your title on your business card just said gangster lawyer
Eric Farber 1:20
with an A? Well, actually, it’s very funny, but but there was a time when I represented. It was the two bucks quarter state easy. And the I’m gonna forget the name. I’m so sorry. It was the original. It was one of the original gangster rap. And it was Oh, it’s it’s escaping me. It was another it was I had like three other estate. So as a job one day our receptionist answered the phone dead wrapper law firm.
For a law firm,
that was better. So yeah,
Nick Glimsdahl 2:04
yeah. That’s great. So what what made you want to write the case for culture?
Eric Farber 2:12
Well, it’s interesting, you know, I, I had worked for more than 20 years, for about 20 years as a as a lawyer for a lot of athletes. And I know you’re in Columbus, we were talking about Cincinnati, I represent about five guys that played for the played for the Bengals for a long time, and I traveled about 200 days a year. And my phone was 24. Seven, I can, you know, tell you the countless holidays I missed or dinners I missed, I was telling somebody that story where my, my wife’s boss flew in from Australia, she works for why we should work for one company based in Australia. And he flew in for a dinner with her because she had a great year. And, and my phone rang with one of the athletes and I spent the dinner out side while he was telling me his fears of the next day’s game. And so that was pretty bad. And I wanted to create, we, you know, it sort of led into it, I wanted to create a better environment for myself really a better life as a lawyer for myself, and get away from that 24 seven stuff. So we started Pacific workers. And it and I just saw the the craziness and the terrible, terrible customer service of our type of law firm. And so I really started focusing on the customer service side, realize that if you really want to focus on customer service, you really got to focus on your team. And it led me to, you know, reading a lot of books, and a ton. I mean, I’m surrounded by them now, right? Because I’ve never stopped. And it it led me to really understand what business is about. So by that I stumbled on culture, we were able to really grow the law firm by that. And I wanted to bring it to other lawyers, because we really don’t think about it. Yeah,
Nick Glimsdahl 4:22
yeah. It’s tough to think about it sometimes in the moment, isn’t it? It’s, you’re going through the motions and you kind of saying, like, I’m so focused on this. And I have I call it the horse blinders where you’re, you got this straight line, you got to run toward as fast as you can, instead of picking your head up and saying, why am I doing this? Why is this important?
Eric Farber 4:42
Yeah, lawyers just really, you know, they’re so blinded by the next trial in front of them, they forget that they’re running businesses. And, and running a business requires a lot. And that’s, you know, being being very much looking at the vision of what the what the business About. And that brings that has to bring you back to the people that you’re surrounded with. And that’s culture.
Nick Glimsdahl 5:06
Yeah. And inside the book, you talk about a 360 culture. What is that? And why is it important?
Eric Farber 5:13
Well, to look at a 360 culture, you have to look at what a business really is. And, to me a business. For many, many years in America, we’ve looked at stakeholders versus shareholders. And stakeholders versus shareholders really is the idea of that the the purpose of a business is to make profit. And I kind of flipped out on a script. And I say the purpose of a business is to serve its customers. And part of those customers are the team. So we have a stakeholder view at our company, that we take care of team, clients, vendors, the community, that that is putting out a culture that is a that is everything. And so it’s a 360 view, it permeates our marketing and permeates the way we onboard somebody it permeates the way we we hire people. It’s a 360 view of culture, and not just saying, Hey, we’re gonna put in a foosball table and maybe some free drinks in the kitchen,
Nick Glimsdahl 6:18
which would be helpful, but it doesn’t solve the problem.
Eric Farber 6:22
Correct? It really is. It’s it’s not solving any problems, actually, it’s really just adding to your budget. Yeah.
Nick Glimsdahl 6:30
Yeah. So, um, what is the mission of Pacific workers today?
Eric Farber 6:37
Well, we we look at our mission, our mission as to serve justice, with dignity, and to our clients, and to our team, and to our community. So it’s a three part, it’s, there’s three pillars to it, our team, our clients, our community. And that’s the mission. Right? And that is pushed forward by a lot of different things.
Nick Glimsdahl 7:04
And why are those three important?
Eric Farber 7:08
Well, they’re, they’re important for so many different reasons. And I know, you know, your podcast doesn’t go, you know, it’s not the 10 hour Tim Ferriss podcast, right. My there, they are important, because without, you know, the saying that the job of the business owner is to take care of the team. Yep, the team takes care of the clients, and the clients take care of all of us. And reaching out to the community is a very important piece of that as well. We do a lot of stuff in our, in our community, one of the examples I use a lot is where the largest donator, to the Oakland firefighters, which is outside of LA, the largest firefighter union in Northern California. And it was done, you know, strategically, because we believe in the firefighters, the firefighters are the most respected profession in our community. And they get the word out for us about what we do. And we represent a lot of firefighters. However, for years, even though we were donating and participating and things, they actually referring stuff to somebody else, cases to somebody else. And I kept saying that doesn’t matter. Maybe someday that guy retire, it’s still important to our community.
Nick Glimsdahl 8:29
Yeah, you know, when it comes to you talked about stakeholders and shareholders, and the importance of having a company mission and staying in that culture and the importance of hiring for that. What’s the consequences of these employees not not pulling in the same direction? Or or reaching? or looking at that true Northstar?
Eric Farber 8:49
Well, you know, a huge piece of this all started in me saying, we have too much turnover. And that turnover is costing us a fortune, in the time spent bringing somebody in and the time spent, you know, advertising it, talking about, you know, somebody leaving, it’s just an enormous, enormous expense. So selfishly, you know, our culture very much started from how do we reduce turnover? Well, to reduce turnover, you have to create a better a better experience for your team. And that, in turn, will create a better experience for the customers in talking about hiring. We, you know, so many companies, they bring somebody in and they say, Hey, this is what we do, and look at the great benefits we have and we want you to have a work life balance and we want you to do this and you know, we’ve we’ve achieved the these awards and blah, blah, blah, how do you like that dude, you know, and then they negotiate, you know, for the cheapest salary they possibly can and they onboard them and then they say, Oh, well, you guys To give a two week notice, well, sorry, we can’t wait that long, what we do is, we really set a stage for figuring out whether or not our mission and our goals match with the person that we’re interviewing, because it needs to be a great mutual fit. We’re not trying to hoodwink anybody to join us, even though we need to help. Right. And we, I always say, I don’t care, you know, we got 100 resumes, none of them worked. Let’s get another 100 resumes, we’re very clear with people about trying to create a mutual long term fit for their growth and our growth. And that has helped a tremendous, tremendous amount. And really hiring. I know people talk about this all the time. But hiring for a cultural match is a really important thing. If, if you’re if the job requires to have great empathy, then hiring somebody who has no empathy ain’t gonna work out.
Nick Glimsdahl 11:05
Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s tough to even in customer service, there’s 3040 50% turnover year over year, which is frightening and expensive. You know, so it’s, it’s so important to get that culture piece fit, right? Because he, how do you once you get that culture fit, right, and you’re hiring on culture you’re hiring on on the right attributes, or the right characteristics for that culture? They will have a better experience, because their expectations are there. You know, one thing that you also mentioned was having, when people hire somebody, they expect them to keep their personal life personal, and their professional life professional. What’s your expectation? Or what’s your thoughts on that?
Eric Farber 11:53
You know, it’s very interesting. My thoughts are, is you throw that out the window, we are not hiring robots, we are hiring people. You know, if you want a company of robots Go Go develop a bunch of algorithms, which I think we’re all going to have to do at some point, right? But we’re hiring people, and they have ups and downs in their personal life, it’s going to affect what’s going on in their work life. And you got to make sure you’ve got to make sure you’re creating a really open environment for them to be able to talk about it. And the things that are going on, you know, in which one of the stories that I had in the book, we had a where that worked for us for a long time. And he was going through a divorce, and he was, you know, quite he wasn’t, you know, he wasn’t happy coming in the office and things. He just knew that he wasn’t going to be top performing. And so he came in to me, we sat down we talked about it, you know, and kind of rearranged you know, what was going on had other people come in and help them it’s sort of like the, you know, that the dogs on the sled team, one of them’s got a herd PA, the other ones, you know, sort of pick up and, and help moving along, you know, we had another person that, that their grandmother was, was passing, she was the only one that was able to go visit. It was another country. You know, it was going to require a couple of weeks, you know, we’re fine with that stuff. In fact, we give unlimited time off to our salaried employees, people think I’m nuts on this stuff. But look, it allows people to have lives we talk about work life balance, there really isn’t a I don’t like that term. Because, you know, for real career people, for people who are ambitious, you know, work is intertwined with their life. Right? It becomes part of their life. And, and to allow that means that you’ve got to allow for the human stuff that happens. Yeah,
Nick Glimsdahl 14:03
yeah, it’s always good to, to remember that because there is a work life balance, but people are just like any customer that goes into a your store, if you’re retail, or if you’re a convenience shopper, anybody that interacts with you. They bring their whole life with them in that experience. So when somebody calls 800 number and, you know, they call in to fix their shoes or to buy a new refrigerator, they’re bringing that whole life with them. So if the kids crying, that the mom is sick, or somebody has cancer, or they’re going through a divorce, they’re bringing it with them. So have that empathy throughout that time.
Eric Farber 14:42
And look, it really just helps. It helps. If somebody comes in and says, Look, I’m breaking up with my girlfriend, you know, they’re not going to be in a great mood. They probably didn’t sleep well. You know, you say look what calls you got. You have to make that you personally I have to make today, I’ve got, you know, two calls with, you know, two different clients or whatever it is, give the rest of the work to somebody else, they’ll they’ll, you know, they’ll gladly, you know, help their fellow person. And we actually have an award every year, which is the foxhill Award, which is who is the person in the company you would most want to be in a foxhole with. Which is means that you’re helping out your fellow person sitting next to you, or in these days in the box on your screen. Right?
Nick Glimsdahl 15:30
Yeah, your virtual foxhole.
Eric Farber 15:33
Right, the virtual foxhole. And so that just becomes a easier thing. Because, okay, sure, they can probably muster up the energy for two phone calls, or one phone call for the day or do one, one major interaction, but you cannot expect them to be top of their game for eight phone calls, or, or eight hours a day on the phone type of thing. And 90% of today’s work is on the phone. Yeah. So that’s how you help them out. And that’s why it’s important to create a really transparent, soft place for them to land, so to speak, as, as employees. Yeah,
Nick Glimsdahl 16:10
it’s a good point, too, because you’re your your clients have no idea. It’s not like your employee is going to tell your clients Hey, man, I’m just going through a divorce, Hey, I just got sick, hey, this and that’s happening. But you have to be it’s a performance, it’s production, you have to be prepped and ready to go to deliver the experience that they expect.
Eric Farber 16:31
Yeah. And you’re not going to be able to alter that, and adapt unless you’re creating the type of environment that allows them to say, to say I’m having some trouble.
Nick Glimsdahl 16:43
Yeah, yep. So you touched on it a little bit about having fun and donating to the to the community and having a beer fridge. But what’s the Why do companies need to balance between a culture of fun and discipline?
Eric Farber 17:00
Well, a culture of all fun and no discipline is chaos. Right? And, you know, basically a culture of fun and, and no accountability is chaos. It has to balance itself. And essentially, when we were starting to really shift our culture, and people ask me all the time, you know, where do I start? I start with saying, make sure that you’re appreciating your people and find the small wins, and start to win them over to a new way of thinking. And that’s a lot easier by saying, Hey, we got some free lunch today. Yeah, right. Let’s talk about this at the free lunch. No such thing as a free lunch, right. And, and that’s a place, that’s a place to start, right. And so then you can start to instill more discipline processes. And when you really look at the big companies, the ones that have scaled, the ones that have expanded, and you know, we just hit the Inc 5000 for the third year in a row. And we were invited to do the Bay Area 50, which is the fastest growing companies in the Bay Area, we hit the barrier 100 this is how you scale. You scale through disciplined processes and procedures. When I use the word discipline, I’m not talking about being a disciplinary. That’s two different things. Just being disciplined in your process, disciplined on what the intake calls look like, what the process is, documenting these things, documenting each and every process, how do you get the mail out? And when big cut when companies get this stuff, right. It also allows people to know if they’re doing something wrong, because you know, a mistake happens. And then you can look and say, Oh, did you just not follow the process? Or is our process bad? Yeah. Right. And then it gives them the opportunity to go back and look and see see how they did. And it also gives them easy way to train people. So and getting everybody on the same page. And that’s what really means when you say getting everybody on the same page is instilling discipline processes. And I want to, you know, hit it again, being a disciplined company doesn’t mean you’re a bunch of disciplinarians.
Nick Glimsdahl 19:28
Right? Yeah, you can still have fun but be disciplined. reaching your ultimate objective.
Eric Farber 19:34
Yeah. And look, the the fun side of it is really the ability to get to know people within your with within the company. Prior to all this we had about 60 company events every year and people think I’m nuts but we we would get together it’s the chance to get to know everybody take a little bit of a break. Every year we do we have annual stuff. We have weekly stuff. We have monthly stuff, quarterly stuff, etc. And it all has different levels of, of interaction.
Nick Glimsdahl 20:07
And how many total employees you guys have.
Eric Farber 20:10
We’re about 16. Now, I did not realize that until I actually sat down looking at budget stuff yesterday, but we’ve got a lot. Yeah, but we started with four people six years ago.
Nick Glimsdahl 20:22
Wow. It’s amazing. And being on the on the bay, 100 congrats on that. I think it’s a big accomplishment. One thing that’s really unique to your law firm, though, is that you don’t make your attorneys bring in any business. Why the shift? And and how is that? How is that perceived with a lot lawyers?
Eric Farber 20:45
They love it. They love it. Because, because, one they don’t teach marketing and in law school, yeah. But essentially, the the function of any company, any company, is to have a market, its own marketing department to bring in to bring in work, if a lawyer is sitting there worried about bringing in work to be able to make partner or you know, creating their own hours, that’s, that’s basically just a collection of a whole bunch of solos, right? But by by doing the hard work of bringing people in, but bringing the clients in for everybody, and allows them to focus on what they’re good at, and get better at what they’re good at. There’s plenty of lawyers who have come to me and said, Hey, I want to be part of the marketing process. I want to go speak at stuff, we never stopped them. Of course not. That would be ridiculous, right? But, and, and getting them to focus and say, Okay, well, which part of the marketing you want to be part of, Oh, you know, go speak at conventions or go do things like that for the unions, or whatever it is. And that’s totally fine. But that’s not they’re not judged on bring people in, they’re judged on customer service and maximizing cases for the clients.
Nick Glimsdahl 22:03
So you mentioned that they’re judged on customer service and maximizing the cases. Is that is that a metric that you can measure? Of course,
yeah, don’t do it if you can’t measure it, right?
Yeah. And how do you measure customer service?
Eric Farber 22:19
Well, we measure customer service by client satisfaction, we do client satisfaction surveys, we do. We do. You know, the basic, the basic stuff, we’ll even talk to the teams themselves, because part of the customers of our lawyers are their case manager, assistant case manager, the people they work with. So we look at, we look at that as well. And we also know that, you know, we have averages, especially in our company, in our method or not method, our type of law, workers comp, it’s a very high volume practice. And so it’s easy to build metrics of what’s happening. And so we have case averages, we have lots of different things that we can look at, right? And then, you know, pick up the phone and ask the client, how things went is also a pretty good way. And to be able to measure stuff.
Nick Glimsdahl 23:14
Yeah, it’s always it’s good to have a metric. But it’s also important to take that time pick the phone up, go grab coffee, or lunch with somebody or now virtual lunches, and say, how are we doing? How can we improve? What’s one thing that we can do to to satisfy provide a better experience for you and just just shut up and listen is half the goal?
Eric Farber 23:34
Yeah, I actually heard a very interesting story where there’s a firm in New York, fairly large, firm, mid size regional, they decided that they were going to bring in a bunch of their clients to do a panel up panel discussion, you know, to get that information from their clients. And it was a friend of mine who works there. And he said, one of the clients got up, they represent a lot of sort of business owners, large businesses, one of the guys on the stage said, I’ve been a client of this firm for 12 years, I average a bill about seven to $10 million a year for the last 12 years. I call my lawyer at least five to 10 times a day. And the receptionist doesn’t know my name.
Nick Glimsdahl 24:20
Oh, man. They should know then know his birthday. His kids names his favorite, favorite gangster name. But yeah, um, yeah, it’s it’s interesting. You know, that kind of brings me to the to one of the other questions is, why is it so important to actively listen to your customers to your employees?
Eric Farber 24:47
Or active listening is the most important skill that I think any person can have in this life. It really it allows you to hear people, when people it builds trust. Trust is built when people feel that they’re heard. So we actually teach active listening. Chris Voss has some great stuff on this in his book, not sure if you’re familiar with it
Nick Glimsdahl 25:18
never split the difference, right? Yeah, never
Eric Farber 25:20
split the difference. And the precursor book to that was herb Collins book, how to negotiate anything. And if you haven’t read that book, it’s I, I’m not sure how old that is. But I know I’ve got a pretty, pretty old Copy that, that I have, that was the sort of the precursor to it. And active listening, and creating empathy is about listening and building trust. And when you start teaching that active listening and people feeling heard, it’s cutting down, especially in a customer service, it’s cutting down on those, those bad phone calls, there’s bad interactions with clients. It’s also allowing people your employees to feel heard, right, we may put in a process in a company as thinking that it’s okay. But unless people feel like they have an open, transparent environment to speak, that process, which might be completely outdated, might have been fine five years ago will never get changed. And we’ll continue to build it to to result in a bad result. Creating a place where people listen, will change everything about your company.
Nick Glimsdahl 26:36
So talking about changing your company, you you mentioned in the book, and I kind of want to ask it in a question. How was your turnover turnover when you first started? And then what is it today?
Eric Farber 26:50
It was outrageous. When we first started, I don’t remember the exact numbers, but it was probably in the 60 to 70% range. Wow. We are, we are proud to say that our last clients or customers, excuse me, our last employee survey, which just came out a couple of days ago, we don’t once a month was 80%, happy or very happy, which was good to see. That over 90% said they would recommend working at our company to a friend, which I liked very much. I haven’t calculated completely. But I do think we are below the 10% mark now for turnover.
Nick Glimsdahl 27:33
Yeah, and the thing that I like too is you talked about paying them above where the market is paying. Because you increase or decrease turnover, you’re going to increase profit. You You can you have that ability to pay those people additional resources. And then that creates that the gel between them where they’re saying, Hey, I feel known and valued. I feel respected. I have unlimited vacation. Yeah, we have a bunch of happy hours. There’s community events. But that’s just one more thing that’s going to keep you sticky from you know, having another company, another law firm and other any industry coming up to your your employee and saying, hey, do you want a job? And you’re there saying, Hey, can you do these five, six things? I’m good. I’m gonna stay here.
Eric Farber 28:25
Yeah, it’s trying to create the uncoachable employee. Yeah, that is, that’s your goal. Especially if you’re the leader of the company, sure you got a vision, you want to you want to set what the company goes and does. And you want to tell them people why you want to do what they do. But at the end of the day, your job is to take care of the employees, let them take care of the clients. Yeah, right, the way you want them to take care of the clients and they’ll get on board. But try we do everything we can to pay them as much as we possibly can. And that does create the stickiness of it. Workers Comp does not pay much. I said, Well, this is ridiculous. We’re paying. We’re paying the average in the workers comp plaintiffs workers comp field. But then I realized, wait a second, I’ve got college grads, and we’re not talking about lawyers, we’re talking about the staff. Because it’s more important to focus on the staff that is the lawyers. They’re they’re the key to your keeping your clients happy. And so we’re paying more we saw what we were paying to them. And then we say, well wait a second, I can go get a job at any law firm, then go get a job doing trademark, which pays more intellectual property. So now we got to match that. Then we thought, Wait a second, we’re in the Bay Area. They can go get serious jobs, being a receptionist somewhere and make more than they’re making with us with some startup ships being funded by venture money. So we really said let’s match the market for what they could get hired for.
Nick Glimsdahl 29:59
And that’s a That’s a big, hairy, audacious goal for for everyone is to understand what’s going on what the markets looking for meant paying them love what marketing ask. I think that’s awesome. If you, you know, back in the day when you were working crazy hours, you had a bunch of rappers, your title was gangster with an A, what advice would you give yourself when you were doing all of these things and you were unhappy? If you can give yourself advice today?
Eric Farber 30:33
Well, I certainly would go back and say, don’t worry about sort of the glamour and Limelight of what I was doing or trying to find, you know, trying to find some, some life as a lawyer like that. I think that there’s far more satisfaction and just helping the average person out there.
Nick Glimsdahl 30:54
Yeah, it’s great advice. Yeah. So I wrap up every podcast with two questions. And the first question is, is what book or person has influenced you the most in the past year? And the second question is, if you could leave a note to all the customer service, or all the customer experience, or even just anybody, and it would reach reach them all? What would it say? Well, well,
Eric Farber 31:17
let’s start with the first one, which might take up the time for the other Ryan Holiday is I have become a massive fan of Ryan Holiday. And I start reading his books a long time ago before he started writing books on stoicism. And I listen to his podcast every morning called the daily stoic, highly recommended, but his books. He has books on marketing his books on now, writing on stoicism, his first book, which was, trust me, I’m lying, was instrumental and how we approached a lot of our marketing, perennial seller is a tremendous book, which is about running companies creating art that lasts and how how history has shown, shown some amazing, amazing companies throughout history. And then you start reading the books on stoicism, which have been incredibly helpful for me to to shape how we do things of the company. So that’s an easy one is Ryan Holiday has been a, a, an incredible sort of guiding light in a lot of the stuff that I’ve been doing a note to people, and what would it say? Well, that one’s a tough one. But I would say, again, you know, I’m not sure I have anything truly specific or anything mind blowing, that is specific, take care of yourself first. And then you can that allows you to take care of other people.
Nick Glimsdahl 32:58
I think that is great advice. It’s It’s so tough to to reflect, you think of the the mechanic whose truck is the one that’s always broken. Right, you think of the lawncare people who’s typically has the worst lawns in the block because they’re so focused on others. But if you look in the mirror and see where you reflect a little bit, it’s a good example of taking care of yourself and then taking care of others. You can connect with Eric, on LinkedIn. And it’s Eric Farber. So he are I see. Last Name Farber, fa, r, b, e, r, you can go to his twitter at real Eric Farber. So there is must be a fake one. And then also, I encourage you, I had the ability or the I got to read the book. And so go to his website. It’s called the case for culture. And I encourage you to sign up for the reading list through the website. So Eric, thank you so much. I enjoyed it. It was great to finally meet a true gangster. And look forward to learning more on on social media.
Eric Farber 34:13
Hey, thanks very much, Nick, for having me. Just and everybody just want to let them know case for culture is available Amazon right now. During the pandemic, I put it down to 99 cents, so much less than a cup of coffee to to read it because I think it could be very helpful in this during this time for people.
Nick Glimsdahl 34:34
That’s great. So skip your coffee for one day, and transform your organization. Yeah, thanks, Nick. Thanks, Eric.
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The Press 1 For Nick podcast is both educational and engaging, and each episode offers listeners a dynamic blend of insightful stories, best practices, and invaluable lessons.
Nick’s guests – each with a unique wealth of knowledge – include leaders from a variety of backgrounds and industries. Some of his guests include:
Customer service & customer experience leaders- A hostage negotiator
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- Former VP of Disney’s Magic Kingdom
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- Deputy Chief Veteran Experience Officer from the U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs
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